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Who knows what a GURU is? (歴史篇)

「グル」の歴史を見てみよう。

[Since 1999/10]


[前] 1999/3

2000/5

たまたま見つけてしまいましたので‥ (-_-;

 でも、インド学系の人たちにとっては「真実のグルを見つける方法」 なんてのはどーでもいい話だということはよくわかります。 専門家とおぼしき人のフォローがほとんど付かないし。 ‥‥ でもそんな中で、「グルの位置付け」に関して 幅広く扱った本があるという情報をキャッチ!! (^o^) 読んでみたい。

まだ未整理状態です。(といいつつ10年放置‥)


Message-ID:  <002b01bfb9ce$f9559400$35819780@eznet.net>
Date:         Tue, 9 May 2000 11:55:18 -0400
Reply-To: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
From: Steve Brown <sb009h@MAIL.ROCHESTER.***>
Organization: university of rochester
Subject:      a question for the traditionalists among us
To: INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK


Friends;

i am curious about the methodology of finding a guru in classical 
hinduism...How does one look?  when does one know he/she has found their 
guru?  how does one approach this guru? is this discussed in the 
Dharmasuutraas?  I ask only for my own purposes...not scholarly, those 
of seeking out a guru. any help you can provide will be of immense help 
and quite appreciated

namaste

steve


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Stephen J Brown
University of Rochester

" The Spirit of God, I realized, is exaustless Bliss; His body is =
countless tissues of light..."

-Paramahansa Yogananda

Lord Buddha was once asked why a man should love all persons equally.
"Because," the great teacher replied, "in the very numerous and varied =
lifespans of
each man, every other being has at one time or another been dear to =
him."

「古典的なヒンドゥー教における、グル発見の方法論について興味があります。 ‥どうやって探すのですか? グルを見つけたかどうかをどうやって知る のですか? このグルにどうやって近付くのですか? これらについては ダルマスートラに書かれてたりするのですか?」
Message-ID:  <2.2.32.20000509202431.00de9ef8@pop3.afn.org>
Date:         Tue, 9 May 2000 16:24:31 -0400
Reply-To: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
From: Chris Beetle <bvi@AFN.***>
Subject:      Re: a question for the traditionalists among us
Comments: cc: Steve Brown <sb009h@MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU>
To: INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK

At 11:55 AM 5/9/00 -0400, Steve Brown wrote:
>Friends;
>
>i am curious about the methodology of finding a guru in classical
>hinduism...How does one look?  when does one know he/she has found their guru?
>how does one approach this guru? is this discussed in the Dharmasuutraas? I
>ask only for my own purposes...not scholarly, those of seeking out a guru. any
>help you can provide will be of immense help and quite appreciated

There is a lot that can be said on this topic.  Here are just a couple
verses I'm aware of:

The following is one verse from Padma Purana:

sat-karma-nipuno vipro, mantra-tantra visaradah,
avaisnava guru na syad, vaisnavah sva paco guruh

A brahmana (priest or intellectual) with all brahminical qualities and
abilities is not qualified to be a guru unless he is a devotee of Lord
Vishnu (the Supreme Lord).  While a devotee of Lord Vishnu, even if born in
the lowest class, is qualified to act as guru.

And one from Bhagavad-gita 4.34

tad viddhi pratipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from
him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can
impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.

I hope this is helpful.

Best wishes,

Chris Beetle
「関係してそうな韻律をふたつ紹介しておきます。
  • sat-karma に熟達したバラモンで、mantra と tantra に精通していても、 ヴィシュヌ教徒でなければグルとすべきではない。 ヴィシュヌ教徒であれば賎民(^svapaca)でもグルである。 (Padmapuraana ?)
  • 「(すべての行為は残らず知識において完結する。) それを、[師への]服従により、質問により、奉仕により知れ。 真理を見る知者たちは、あなたに知識を教示するであろう。」 (Bhagavadgiitaa 4-34 // 上村訳)」
この後者については、前にグルの話が出たときも紹介されてましたね。 「さすがギーター」といったところでしょうか。
Message-ID:  <200005100056.RAA26550@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
Date:         Tue, 9 May 2000 17:58:37 -0700
Reply-To: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sender: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
From: Luis Gonzalez-Reimann <reimann@UCLINK4.BERKELEY.***>
Subject:      Re: a question for the traditionalists among us
To: INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.20000509202431.00de9ef8@pop3.afn.org>

>sat-karma-nipuno vipro, mantra-tantra visaradah,
>avaisnava guru na syad, vaisnavah sva paco guruh

This verse, of course, is not about how to find a Hindu spiritual guru in
general.  It is, rather, a sectarain VaiSNava statement.  The Padma Purana
is a VaiSNava Purana, and a very sectarian one at that: it fiercely
condemns non VaiSNava Hindus of several traditions.

It all depends on what Steve Brown is looking for, a guru within a specific
sectarian branch of Hinduism, or a more open spiritual teacher that accepts
different branches of Hinduism.

Best,

Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
University of California, Berkeley
「上の Padma Puraana は『グルを見つける方法』とは違う話だよね。 まあ、これが適切かどうかは Steve 次第なんだけど」
Message-ID:  <4.2.0.58.20000509153936.00ae6d60@scoop.columbia.edu>
Date:         Tue, 9 May 2000 15:47:40 -0500
Reply-To: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sender: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
From: Christian Lee Novetzke <cln4@COLUMBIA.***>
Subject:      Re: a question for the traditionalists among us
To: INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.20000509202431.00de9ef8@pop3.afn.org>


Steve,

For a non-classical method, you might look one of Anantadas's
hagiographies, the Kabir Parachai, where Kabir becomes a disciple of the
guru Ramanand in a novel way:  Kabir hides on the bathing ghats of the
Ganges where he knows Ramanand will come in the morning for his bath.  When
Ramanand approaches, he trips him, causing the Guru to tumble down the
stairs crying out, "Hey Ram!".  Thus Ramanand's mantra is transmitted to
his accidental disciple, thereby initiating Kabir.  Supposedly, Kabir had
to follow this unorthodox path because he would otherwise have been refused
initiation due to his low birth and ambiguous religious status, between
Muslim and Hindu.

Like I said, not a "traditional" way, but perhaps a critique of tradition.

Christian Novetzke
Columbia University

「古典的じゃない方法なら、Anantadas の Kabir Parachai (15c)の伝記を 見るとよいかもしれない。Kabir が guru Ramanand の弟子となったときの 出来事であるが、Ramanand が朝に沐浴するのを知った Kabir は ガンガーの沐浴用の階段に隠れ、Ramanand が来たときに ``Hey Ram!'' と叫んで転ばせた。 そこで Ramanad のマントラが伝えられることとなり、 結果的に Kabir は入信することとなった。 おそらく Kabir は身分の低さ、またムスリムとの曖昧な関係によって、 上のような突発的な方法を取らない限り、入信することはできなかった のではないだろうか。--- これは『伝統的な』方法ではなく、 伝統に対する批判なのだろう」 なんか違うよね、やっぱり‥ (^_^;
Message-ID:  <Pine.SGI.4.10.10005092107001.16471461-100000@mail1.ats.rochester.edu>
Date:         Tue, 9 May 2000 21:28:37 -0400
Reply-To: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sender: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
From: Stephen James Brown <sb009h@MAIL.ROCHESTER.***>
Subject:      Re: a question for the traditionalists among us
To: INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
In-Reply-To:  <200005100056.RAA26550@uclink4.berkeley.edu>

perhaps i should have been more clear.  I am not looking for a guru in any
particular tradition.  I have come into contact with some modern forms of
hinduism in the states where the idea always seems to be that of a sadguru
for the entire sect...i desire a sadguru in the more traditional way, as
the sole student or one of a small number of students.  There are many who
I consider upagurus, but long for the love and grace of a guru who takes
me as one among the few.  i hope this clarifies things...i appreciate the
help thus far..

thanks
steve

「もっとハッキリ書くべきでしたね。私は特定のセクトにおけるグルを 探してるのではなく、すべての宗派に共通した sadguru を探して いるのです。 そして私は弟子が私ひとりか、あるいは数人程度といった点で伝統的な sadguru を望んでいます。云々」
Message-ID:  <20000510143619.14604.qmail@web1405.mail.yahoo.com>
Date:         Wed, 10 May 2000 07:36:19 -0700
Reply-To: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sender: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
From: Jan Brzezinski <jankbrz@YAHOO.***>
Subject:      Re: a question for the traditionalists among us
To: INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK

It seems to me that in 99% of cases, it was an
inherited family affair -- kula-gurus, following
pretty much the same procedure as yajamanas.

For those whose calling was more pronounced, you have
your work cut out for you. You will probably find that
there are repeated archetypal patterns involving the
usual suspects: long fruitless searches followed by
dream revelations, sudden apparitions, tests of
sincerity, and so on.

You have tons of hagiographical material to plough
through, so good luck.

Jan


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Message-ID:  <001501bfbb2a$19dd5760$b5c6e584@zca002.let.leidenuniv.nl>
Date:         Thu, 11 May 2000 11:20:08 +0200
Reply-To: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sender: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
From: "Jan E.M. Houben" <jhouben@RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.**>
Subject:      Re: a question for the traditionalists among us
To: INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK

Concerning Steve Brown's question:

>>i am curious about the methodology of finding a guru in classical
>>hinduism...How does one look?  when does one know he/she has found
theirguru?

and concerning the replies given so far:

I think that for anyone interested in the phenomenon of "master-pupil"
relation (for either theoretical or practical reasons) in classical and
modern and neo-hinduism the following book is a MUST:
Guru-sisya-sambandha: Das Meister-Schueler-Verhaeltnis im traditionellen und
modernen Hinduismus, by Ralph Marc Steiner, Stuttgart: Steiner 1986
(Beitraege zur Suedasienforschung ... Heidelberg, Band 109).
For those put off by the German title: it contains an extensive, 17-page
summary in English (which mostly reads like a self-contained argument). Part
I (chapters 1-4) deals with The Tradition (both the "Great" Sanscritic
tradition and the Tamil tradition as example of a "Little" tradition are
taken into account). Part II (chapters 5-8) deals with the Modern Age: the
guru institution of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries between tradition
and modernity [with, for instance, the discussion of two extreme examples in
chapter 6: S. Agnihotri 1850-1909 who insisted that his followers (of the
Dev Samaj) adored him like a god, as the one and only Dev-Guru Bhagvan; and
J. Krishnamurti (1895-1986) who at a grand world-meeting of the Theosophical
Society (in Ommen, the Netherlands, must have been in the twenties) publicly
rejected the guru-institution in general and his status as world-teacher --
for which he had been selected and carefully educated by the Society -- in
particular.]
Part III (chapters 9 and 10) is devoted to Typology and hermeneutic
evaluation.

For the modern predicaments chapter 8 will be most interesting; it deals for
instance with "The common features of Neo-Hindu guruship such as alienation,
levelling process and commercialization ... "
"The conclusion is drawn that the modern master-disciple relationship
appears to be largely dissociated from its traditional background and that
on the whole neither the guru nor his followers fulfill the requirements for
the path to salvation in the traditional spirit as they are chalked out by
the Hindu tradition."
The author is not all negative about modern Hindu guruship: "A definite
assessment of the modern guru movements is, however, thought to be premature
.. these movements also make a considereable contribution to the overcoming
of technocratic civilization and positivistic thought together with its
belief in material progress."
The Guru-Sotra (extremely popular in India and several neo-Hindu movements)
with German translation, and the Acarya-laksana ("characteristic signs of a
[N.B. Visnuitic] teacher") with an earlier published English translation of
Feuerstein, 1974) are given in Appendices.

The work contains numerous references to previous relevant publications; one
could quarrel about some of the author's categorizations, choices,
translations; but his general evaluations seem still largely valid after
almost 15 years.

[Is anyone aware of publications in which Steinmann's research is carried
further, or is this one of the so many excellent Indological works which is
widely neglected after its publication?]

I hope this information contributes in either helping or curing Steve Brown
in his desire for a sadguru, whom the guru-stotra equals with all primordial
affectual relationships: "you are mother and you are father ... etc.".
JH

Jan E.M. Houben,
Kern Institute, Leiden University,
P.O. Box 9515, NL-2300 RA   Leiden
jhouben@RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL
「『師弟関係』という現象に興味がある人には以下:
Ralph Marc Steiner. Guru-sisya-sambandha: Das Meister-Schueler-Verhaeltnis im traditionellen und modernen Hinduismus, Stuttgart, 1986.
この本は不可欠でしょう。 近代については第8章が中心になってて、 『異化(alienation)・水平化のプロセス・商品化という Neo-Hindu guruship の共通した特徴』 『近代的な師弟関係は、伝統的な背景とはかなり乖離しており、 ヒンドゥー教が伝統的に描いてきた解脱への要件を 師匠・弟子ともに満たしていない』 しかし否定的な意見だけではない。 『近代的な guru movenents の一定の評価としては、 時期尚早ではあるが‥ これらの movements は 技術文明、また実証的な思考ならびに 物質的な発展への信仰を克服する際にかなりの貢献となる』 この本の細かい内容については異論は出るかもしれないが、 彼の15年前の考察は今もって妥当である」 うわー、こんな本があるのか!! 読んでみたい。‥‥ けどドイツ語かよ (-_-;; ちなみに。調べてみると、東北大図書館に入ってる。
Message-ID:  <20000514080234.1083.qmail@hotmail.com>
Date:         Sun, 14 May 2000 01:02:34 PDT
Reply-To: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sender: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan@HOTMAIL.***>
Subject:      Re: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke
To: INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK

>1. The stories of the Sangama brothers' Telugu origin and conversion to
>Islam
>etc. are not supported by epigraphic evidence.

Nor is there much epigraphical evidence for the Kannada origin of the
Sangama brothers. There has been a pretty long history of debate over
Kannada vs. Telugu origins. Linguistic pride in the post-Independence period
has added to it. Whether the first dynasty of Vijayanagara is of Kakatiya
origin or Hoysala origin remains an issue on which much can be said on both
sides. Warangal university keeps producing people who say they were Telugu
and Dharwad university has people arguing for Kannada origins. The funny
thing is that such a linguistic dichotomy was probably not even significant
for the people who actually lived in the 14th century.

>2. While there is epigraphic evidence of a Jaina establishment at Sringeri
>in
>the 12th century, there is no evidence of a Sankara monastey at Sringeri
>prior to 1346 when the vijayotsava of Vijayanagara was celebrated. The
>hitherto known epigraphical evidence allows only the conclusion that
>Sankara
>was not the founder of Sringeri's famous matha.

Well, there is a small Jain settlement in Sringeri even today, and the
Sankara matha actually helps maintain a Jain Tirthankara temple there. And
arguments from absence of evidence have to be carefully made.

Kulke's statements are based on an acceptance of Hacker's statements
regarding Vidyaranya's "Kultur-politik" after the invasion of south India by
the Khilji armies. Sadly though, if you read Hacker's original paper in his
Kleine Schriften collection, you will find that the most unbridled
speculations are presented as if they are careful conclusions. Hacker does
not hedge his statements, or even use words like "probably" or "seems like"
or "may be". He simply claims, "Er (= Vidyaranya) schuf Fiktionen." He is
remarkably silent about what evidence he has for what the fiction is and
what Vidyaranya is supposed to have propagated. He thinks Vidyaranya used
his political connections to install Vidyasankara, his guru, as the head of
a newly established matha, and pretended that the monastery was an old one.
Kulke simply modifies this a bit, and thinks Vidyasankara himself was
probably more responsible than Vidyaranya. Anyone who has a little bit of
familiarity with the workings of guru-shishya lineages should know that this
is not how things work. And Sringeri is so far away from both the old
Hoysala capital and the new Vijayanagara capital, that one wonders why these
people had to go and establish their new monastery there. Why not put up an
establishment in Hampi itself, and pretend that that was the old matha?

Both Hacker and Kulke have also ignored other available evidence. There are
pre-Vijayanagara inscriptions available from the vicinity of Sringeri, that
mention Vidyasankara. For example, Antonio Rigopoulos's 1998 book on
Dattatreya (SUNY press) describes a seal from the early 13th century found
in Shimoga, that also salutes Gaudapada, Govinda and Sankara. To say that
Vidyaranya or Vidyasankara simply pretended that their matha had been
established by Sankara, simply in order to legitimate a new Hindu empire, is
to ignore some available data, and rely for the rest on speculation. I'm
actually surprised that Kulke does not seem to have gone through the
Epigraphica Carnatica more thoroughly.

Vidyasankar
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