| [前] 1999/3 |
たまたま見つけてしまいましたので‥ (-_-;
でも、インド学系の人たちにとっては「真実のグルを見つける方法」
なんてのはどーでもいい話だということはよくわかります。
専門家とおぼしき人のフォローがほとんど付かないし。 ‥‥
でもそんな中で、「グルの位置付け」に関して
幅広く扱った本があるという情報をキャッチ!! (^o^)
読んでみたい。
まだ未整理状態です。(といいつつ10年放置‥)
Message-ID: <002b01bfb9ce$f9559400$35819780@eznet.net> Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 11:55:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK> From: Steve Brown <sb009h@MAIL.ROCHESTER.***> Organization: university of rochester Subject: a question for the traditionalists among us To: INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Friends; i am curious about the methodology of finding a guru in classical hinduism...How does one look? when does one know he/she has found their guru? how does one approach this guru? is this discussed in the Dharmasuutraas? I ask only for my own purposes...not scholarly, those of seeking out a guru. any help you can provide will be of immense help and quite appreciated namaste steve ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Stephen J Brown University of Rochester " The Spirit of God, I realized, is exaustless Bliss; His body is = countless tissues of light..." -Paramahansa Yogananda Lord Buddha was once asked why a man should love all persons equally. "Because," the great teacher replied, "in the very numerous and varied = lifespans of each man, every other being has at one time or another been dear to = him."
Message-ID: <2.2.32.20000509202431.00de9ef8@pop3.afn.org> Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 16:24:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK> From: Chris Beetle <bvi@AFN.***> Subject: Re: a question for the traditionalists among us Comments: cc: Steve Brown <sb009h@MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU> To: INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK At 11:55 AM 5/9/00 -0400, Steve Brown wrote: >Friends; > >i am curious about the methodology of finding a guru in classical >hinduism...How does one look? when does one know he/she has found their guru? >how does one approach this guru? is this discussed in the Dharmasuutraas? I >ask only for my own purposes...not scholarly, those of seeking out a guru. any >help you can provide will be of immense help and quite appreciated There is a lot that can be said on this topic. Here are just a couple verses I'm aware of: The following is one verse from Padma Purana: sat-karma-nipuno vipro, mantra-tantra visaradah, avaisnava guru na syad, vaisnavah sva paco guruh A brahmana (priest or intellectual) with all brahminical qualities and abilities is not qualified to be a guru unless he is a devotee of Lord Vishnu (the Supreme Lord). While a devotee of Lord Vishnu, even if born in the lowest class, is qualified to act as guru. And one from Bhagavad-gita 4.34 tad viddhi pratipatena pariprasnena sevaya upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth. I hope this is helpful. Best wishes, Chris Beetle
Message-ID: <200005100056.RAA26550@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 17:58:37 -0700 Reply-To: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK> Sender: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK> From: Luis Gonzalez-Reimann <reimann@UCLINK4.BERKELEY.***> Subject: Re: a question for the traditionalists among us To: INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20000509202431.00de9ef8@pop3.afn.org> >sat-karma-nipuno vipro, mantra-tantra visaradah, >avaisnava guru na syad, vaisnavah sva paco guruh This verse, of course, is not about how to find a Hindu spiritual guru in general. It is, rather, a sectarain VaiSNava statement. The Padma Purana is a VaiSNava Purana, and a very sectarian one at that: it fiercely condemns non VaiSNava Hindus of several traditions. It all depends on what Steve Brown is looking for, a guru within a specific sectarian branch of Hinduism, or a more open spiritual teacher that accepts different branches of Hinduism. Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000509153936.00ae6d60@scoop.columbia.edu> Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 15:47:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK> Sender: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK> From: Christian Lee Novetzke <cln4@COLUMBIA.***> Subject: Re: a question for the traditionalists among us To: INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20000509202431.00de9ef8@pop3.afn.org> Steve, For a non-classical method, you might look one of Anantadas's hagiographies, the Kabir Parachai, where Kabir becomes a disciple of the guru Ramanand in a novel way: Kabir hides on the bathing ghats of the Ganges where he knows Ramanand will come in the morning for his bath. When Ramanand approaches, he trips him, causing the Guru to tumble down the stairs crying out, "Hey Ram!". Thus Ramanand's mantra is transmitted to his accidental disciple, thereby initiating Kabir. Supposedly, Kabir had to follow this unorthodox path because he would otherwise have been refused initiation due to his low birth and ambiguous religious status, between Muslim and Hindu. Like I said, not a "traditional" way, but perhaps a critique of tradition. Christian Novetzke Columbia University
(^_^;
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.10.10005092107001.16471461-100000@mail1.ats.rochester.edu> Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 21:28:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK> Sender: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK> From: Stephen James Brown <sb009h@MAIL.ROCHESTER.***> Subject: Re: a question for the traditionalists among us To: INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK In-Reply-To: <200005100056.RAA26550@uclink4.berkeley.edu> perhaps i should have been more clear. I am not looking for a guru in any particular tradition. I have come into contact with some modern forms of hinduism in the states where the idea always seems to be that of a sadguru for the entire sect...i desire a sadguru in the more traditional way, as the sole student or one of a small number of students. There are many who I consider upagurus, but long for the love and grace of a guru who takes me as one among the few. i hope this clarifies things...i appreciate the help thus far.. thanks steve
Message-ID: <20000510143619.14604.qmail@web1405.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 07:36:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK> Sender: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK> From: Jan Brzezinski <jankbrz@YAHOO.***> Subject: Re: a question for the traditionalists among us To: INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK It seems to me that in 99% of cases, it was an inherited family affair -- kula-gurus, following pretty much the same procedure as yajamanas. For those whose calling was more pronounced, you have your work cut out for you. You will probably find that there are repeated archetypal patterns involving the usual suspects: long fruitless searches followed by dream revelations, sudden apparitions, tests of sincerity, and so on. You have tons of hagiographical material to plough through, so good luck. Jan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/
Message-ID: <001501bfbb2a$19dd5760$b5c6e584@zca002.let.leidenuniv.nl> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 11:20:08 +0200 Reply-To: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK> Sender: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK> From: "Jan E.M. Houben" <jhouben@RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.**> Subject: Re: a question for the traditionalists among us To: INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Concerning Steve Brown's question: >>i am curious about the methodology of finding a guru in classical >>hinduism...How does one look? when does one know he/she has found theirguru? and concerning the replies given so far: I think that for anyone interested in the phenomenon of "master-pupil" relation (for either theoretical or practical reasons) in classical and modern and neo-hinduism the following book is a MUST: Guru-sisya-sambandha: Das Meister-Schueler-Verhaeltnis im traditionellen und modernen Hinduismus, by Ralph Marc Steiner, Stuttgart: Steiner 1986 (Beitraege zur Suedasienforschung ... Heidelberg, Band 109). For those put off by the German title: it contains an extensive, 17-page summary in English (which mostly reads like a self-contained argument). Part I (chapters 1-4) deals with The Tradition (both the "Great" Sanscritic tradition and the Tamil tradition as example of a "Little" tradition are taken into account). Part II (chapters 5-8) deals with the Modern Age: the guru institution of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries between tradition and modernity [with, for instance, the discussion of two extreme examples in chapter 6: S. Agnihotri 1850-1909 who insisted that his followers (of the Dev Samaj) adored him like a god, as the one and only Dev-Guru Bhagvan; and J. Krishnamurti (1895-1986) who at a grand world-meeting of the Theosophical Society (in Ommen, the Netherlands, must have been in the twenties) publicly rejected the guru-institution in general and his status as world-teacher -- for which he had been selected and carefully educated by the Society -- in particular.] Part III (chapters 9 and 10) is devoted to Typology and hermeneutic evaluation. For the modern predicaments chapter 8 will be most interesting; it deals for instance with "The common features of Neo-Hindu guruship such as alienation, levelling process and commercialization ... " "The conclusion is drawn that the modern master-disciple relationship appears to be largely dissociated from its traditional background and that on the whole neither the guru nor his followers fulfill the requirements for the path to salvation in the traditional spirit as they are chalked out by the Hindu tradition." The author is not all negative about modern Hindu guruship: "A definite assessment of the modern guru movements is, however, thought to be premature .. these movements also make a considereable contribution to the overcoming of technocratic civilization and positivistic thought together with its belief in material progress." The Guru-Sotra (extremely popular in India and several neo-Hindu movements) with German translation, and the Acarya-laksana ("characteristic signs of a [N.B. Visnuitic] teacher") with an earlier published English translation of Feuerstein, 1974) are given in Appendices. The work contains numerous references to previous relevant publications; one could quarrel about some of the author's categorizations, choices, translations; but his general evaluations seem still largely valid after almost 15 years. [Is anyone aware of publications in which Steinmann's research is carried further, or is this one of the so many excellent Indological works which is widely neglected after its publication?] I hope this information contributes in either helping or curing Steve Brown in his desire for a sadguru, whom the guru-stotra equals with all primordial affectual relationships: "you are mother and you are father ... etc.". JH Jan E.M. Houben, Kern Institute, Leiden University, P.O. Box 9515, NL-2300 RA Leiden jhouben@RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL
Ralph Marc Steiner. Guru-sisya-sambandha: Das Meister-Schueler-Verhaeltnis im traditionellen und modernen Hinduismus, Stuttgart, 1986.この本は不可欠でしょう。 近代については第8章が中心になってて、 『異化(alienation)・水平化のプロセス・商品化という Neo-Hindu guruship の共通した特徴』 『近代的な師弟関係は、伝統的な背景とはかなり乖離しており、 ヒンドゥー教が伝統的に描いてきた解脱への要件を 師匠・弟子ともに満たしていない』 しかし否定的な意見だけではない。 『近代的な guru movenents の一定の評価としては、 時期尚早ではあるが‥ これらの movements は 技術文明、また実証的な思考ならびに 物質的な発展への信仰を克服する際にかなりの貢献となる』 この本の細かい内容については異論は出るかもしれないが、 彼の15年前の考察は今もって妥当である」 うわー、こんな本があるのか!! 読んでみたい。‥‥ けどドイツ語かよ
(-_-;;
ちなみに。調べてみると、東北大図書館に入ってる。
Message-ID: <20000514080234.1083.qmail@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 01:02:34 PDT Reply-To: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK> Sender: Indology <INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK> From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan@HOTMAIL.***> Subject: Re: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke To: INDOLOGY@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >1. The stories of the Sangama brothers' Telugu origin and conversion to >Islam >etc. are not supported by epigraphic evidence. Nor is there much epigraphical evidence for the Kannada origin of the Sangama brothers. There has been a pretty long history of debate over Kannada vs. Telugu origins. Linguistic pride in the post-Independence period has added to it. Whether the first dynasty of Vijayanagara is of Kakatiya origin or Hoysala origin remains an issue on which much can be said on both sides. Warangal university keeps producing people who say they were Telugu and Dharwad university has people arguing for Kannada origins. The funny thing is that such a linguistic dichotomy was probably not even significant for the people who actually lived in the 14th century. >2. While there is epigraphic evidence of a Jaina establishment at Sringeri >in >the 12th century, there is no evidence of a Sankara monastey at Sringeri >prior to 1346 when the vijayotsava of Vijayanagara was celebrated. The >hitherto known epigraphical evidence allows only the conclusion that >Sankara >was not the founder of Sringeri's famous matha. Well, there is a small Jain settlement in Sringeri even today, and the Sankara matha actually helps maintain a Jain Tirthankara temple there. And arguments from absence of evidence have to be carefully made. Kulke's statements are based on an acceptance of Hacker's statements regarding Vidyaranya's "Kultur-politik" after the invasion of south India by the Khilji armies. Sadly though, if you read Hacker's original paper in his Kleine Schriften collection, you will find that the most unbridled speculations are presented as if they are careful conclusions. Hacker does not hedge his statements, or even use words like "probably" or "seems like" or "may be". He simply claims, "Er (= Vidyaranya) schuf Fiktionen." He is remarkably silent about what evidence he has for what the fiction is and what Vidyaranya is supposed to have propagated. He thinks Vidyaranya used his political connections to install Vidyasankara, his guru, as the head of a newly established matha, and pretended that the monastery was an old one. Kulke simply modifies this a bit, and thinks Vidyasankara himself was probably more responsible than Vidyaranya. Anyone who has a little bit of familiarity with the workings of guru-shishya lineages should know that this is not how things work. And Sringeri is so far away from both the old Hoysala capital and the new Vijayanagara capital, that one wonders why these people had to go and establish their new monastery there. Why not put up an establishment in Hampi itself, and pretend that that was the old matha? Both Hacker and Kulke have also ignored other available evidence. There are pre-Vijayanagara inscriptions available from the vicinity of Sringeri, that mention Vidyasankara. For example, Antonio Rigopoulos's 1998 book on Dattatreya (SUNY press) describes a seal from the early 13th century found in Shimoga, that also salutes Gaudapada, Govinda and Sankara. To say that Vidyaranya or Vidyasankara simply pretended that their matha had been established by Sankara, simply in order to legitimate a new Hindu empire, is to ignore some available data, and rely for the rest on speculation. I'm actually surprised that Kulke does not seem to have gone through the Epigraphica Carnatica more thoroughly. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com